极品人生

标题: 巴托克的四重奏 [打印本页]

作者: Jwang 时间: 2012-1-30 13:00
标题: 巴托克的四重奏
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2012-1-30 13:17 编辑

最近一直沉浸在巴托克的四重奏所创造的世界中。我被巴托克深刻的世界深为感动。巴托克虽然用的是传统手法,但其音乐语言是现代的。不象肖斯塔科维奇虽然生在现代,但其音乐语言是通俗化的,大众的。巴托克首先是个现代的作曲家,而不是个民间音乐的收集者。其六首四重奏是贝多芬以后最伟大的四重奏。其深刻程度极大程度超越了肖斯塔科维奇的四重奏。

这里有Burt5177这样巴托克的专家,故不敢轻易谈论巴托克的音乐。我只想谈听手中有的巴托克四重奏不同版本的听感。

Emerson String Quartet
他们的演奏是个永远的经典。巴托克在他们演奏中充分地成为个具有现代音乐语言的现代作曲家。很多的音色的平衡,节奏的控制和强弱都处理的非常好,非常令入信服。这个CD的录音也很好。

The Juilliard Quartet
这也个不错的选择,但在处理上不如Emerson.

Tokyo String Quartet
技术上比较粗糙,不够强有力。音色单薄。

Guarneri Quartet
这是优秀的版本,但其音色和处理没有Emerson的那样令人信服。

Hungarian String Quartet
非常优秀的演奏,但对我来讲,巴托克的四重奏中有种具有理智的野蛮性。而在这个版本中那种野蛮失去太多。基本上他们的处理是古典的,温文尔稚的。

Vegh Quartet
他们是和匈牙利四重奏同一风格,基本是用古典的思想来处理巴托克的四重奏的。但比匈牙利更胜出一筹。其音色和乐器的配合非常美,但缺乏了那种野蛮性。喜欢古典风格的这是个首选。他们的No. 6中的第二Movement就有点失控，不象Emerson的那样好，乐器层次这么好。

Alban Berg Qartet
这四重奏乐队我的偶象。他们是典型的维也纳的风格,流畅和优雅。但是他们巴托克或许太光滑和流畅了点。尽管如此,有的人会喜欢。

作者: Roseknight_gao 时间: 2012-1-30 13:08
老兄收了那么多版本，不如再加个布达佩斯的版本，我记得他们好像录过的。

作者: scfan 时间: 2012-1-30 18:05

Vegh Quartet
他们是和匈牙利四重奏同一风格,基本是用古典的思想来处理巴托克的四重奏的。但比匈牙利更胜出一筹。其音色和乐器的配合非常美,但缺乏了那种野蛮性。喜欢古典风格的这是个首选。他们的No. 6中的第二Movement就有点失控，不象Emerson的那样好，乐器层次这么好。
...
Jwang 发表于 2012-1-30 13:00

不知Jim兄听的是哪套？Vegh录过两次，一套是50年代(M&A)，另外一套是70-90年代(VALOIS/Naive)录的。

作者: qingxu 时间: 2012-1-30 18:43
Takacs 弦乐四重奏组也很好。曾获留声机大奖。[attach]42272[/attach]

作者: shinelb 时间: 2012-1-30 19:04
匈牙利本土的弦乐四重奏团来演绎巴托克更加原汁原味，
更能体现作品的精神。

作者: Roseknight_gao 时间: 2012-1-30 20:09

匈牙利本土的弦乐四重奏团来演绎巴托克更加原汁原味，
更能体现作品的精神。
shinelb 发表于 2012-1-30 19:04

DG大禾花，实惠的感觉在占便宜。

作者: 中庸无为 时间: 2012-1-30 21:54
巴托克的东西现在还惹不起，进来学习一下先。

作者: keli 时间: 2012-1-30 23:49
楼主好贴！赞一个。不管各人对不同版本的看法如何，这样的体会我觉得是很宝贵的交流。我很同意楼主对肖斯塔科维奇的描述，他的音乐语言的确比巴托克的（四重奏）更传统和通俗。我听老肖很来电，听巴托克的四重奏却不是这样，大概是功力或缘分不够吧。

作者: Jwang 时间: 2012-1-31 11:51

不知Jim兄听的是哪套？Vegh录过两次，一套是50年代(M&A)，另外一套是70-90年代(VALOIS/Naive)录的。
scfan 发表于 2012-1-30 18:05

我的是M&A的。不过我在Amazon试听了Naive的,觉得更有色彩,故又买了那一套,不过还没到手。
Naxos也出过一套,想来应和M&A的相同。
[attach]42336[/attach]

作者: Roseknight_gao 时间: 2012-1-31 12:01
Naive的录音非常优秀

作者: Jwang 时间: 2012-1-31 12:03
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2012-1-31 12:08 编辑

老兄收了那么多版本，不如再加个布达佩斯的版本，我记得他们好像录过的。
Roseknight_gao 发表于 2012-1-30 13:08

没看见有他们的,只看见有这个.
[attach]42337[/attach]
New Budapest String Quartet

作者: Roseknight_gao 时间: 2012-1-31 12:19

没看见有他们的,只看见有这个.

New Budapest String Quartet
Jwang 发表于 2012-1-31 12:03

我查了一下，好像是没有录过，很抱歉～我忽悠老兄了

作者: 主锁 时间: 2012-1-31 12:31
听过两次现场的巴托克弦乐四重奏，印象深刻啊...

作者: Jwang 时间: 2012-1-31 12:50
巴托克的六部四重奏共在三十一年中完成。其中第二是对第一次世界大战的反应,第六是对即将来临的第二次世界大战及他母亲的过世和他自已日益恶化的健康状况的反应。三十一年,二次世界大战,可见其跨越的时间之宽,其内含的压缩程度。

作者: scfan 时间: 2012-1-31 12:55

我的是M&A的。不过我在Amazon试听了Naive的,觉得更有色彩,故又买了那一套,不过还没到手。
Naxos也出过 ...
Jwang 发表于 2012-1-31 11:51

Naxos档案系列想来应该是和M&A那套单声道一样的录音

作者: scfan 时间: 2012-1-31 12:58

听过两次现场的巴托克弦乐四重奏，印象深刻啊...
主锁发表于 2012-1-31 12:31

哈根去年来上海音乐厅演过巴托克第四号，很靠谱，比他们的海顿拉得好多了

作者: 主锁 时间: 2012-1-31 13:32
回复 scfan 的帖子
的确NB，
音乐厅里尽量往前坐，2-3排也好，松香灰都飘脸上

作者: 670707 时间: 2012-1-31 21:28
回复 Jwang 的帖子
楼主好像没有听完阿尔班贝格（EMI版）与匈牙利版（DG大荷花）吧，我的听感可不是如此啊，前者四声部合奏的强音形成拱形的声线，后者“剃光头”般的运弓、直白的叙述；这些特征是很明显的。

作者: 670707 时间: 2012-1-31 21:45
埃莫森四重奏演奏巴托克四重奏虽然得奖，但我认为不得“神”，他们鲜亮光滑和声以及刻意的技巧展示，对于巴托克弦乐四重奏是不需要的，他需要“沉”、“野”、“孤”、“冥”、“痛”、“思”；把四人分开单打独斗都是顶尖高手，而在巴托克四重奏中要求的独奏乐器极限演奏却显得单薄而失融合性。

作者: Rozinante 时间: 2012-1-31 22:05

我查了一下，好像是没有录过，很抱歉～我忽悠老兄了
Roseknight_gao 发表于 2012-1-31 12:19

还是录过一首的，36年

作者: Rozinante 时间: 2012-1-31 22:11

我听老肖很来电，听巴托克的四重奏却不是这样，大概是功力或缘分不够吧。
keli 发表于 2012-1-30 23:49

我也是，呵呵

作者: 狗儿念经 时间: 2012-1-31 22:54
我就Naive的Vegh一套，Emerson 听了无数次还是不对俺口味。

作者: Roseknight_gao 时间: 2012-2-1 08:22

还是录过一首的，36年
Rozinante 发表于 2012-1-31 22:05

作者: Jwang 时间: 2012-2-1 10:03
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2012-2-1 10:10 编辑

楼主好像没有听完阿尔班贝格（EMI版）与匈牙利版（DG大荷花）吧，我的听感可不是如此啊，前者四声部合奏的强音形成拱形的声线，后者“剃光头”般的运弓、直白的叙述；这些特征是很明显的。

这个好象没冲突吧?你的语言尽管令人费解,似是而非的,,但"拱形的声线"也可是光滑和流畅的曲线。"直白叙述"也和我讲的古典的处理不相矛盾。如果你愿意的话,可以上传段来表明你的观点。

埃莫森四重奏演奏巴托克四重奏虽然得奖，但我认为不得“神”，他们鲜亮光滑和声以及刻意的技巧展示，对于巴托克弦乐四重奏是不需要的，他需要“沉”、“野”、“孤”、“冥”、“痛”、“思”；把四人分开单打独斗都是顶尖高手，而在巴托克四重奏中要求的独奏乐器极限演奏却显得单薄而失融合性。

个人的听感和对作品的理解不同很正常。

作者: alma 时间: 2012-2-1 10:17
本帖最后由 alma 于 2012-2-1 10:21 编辑

我喜欢朱利亚组，一听就爱上了这个版本。爱莫森的没听懂。不过我就听过这两组。

作者: Jwang 时间: 2012-2-1 10:41
http://performanceguides.carnegiehall.org/Bartok/index.html

这是Emersons对巴托克四重奏的一个解说,可惜要听得懂英文才可。很有价值。

作者: scfan 时间: 2012-2-1 10:41
也可以关注一下新组们的录音，比如Decca的Takacs Quartet、ECM的Zhehtmair Quartet、Mirare的Quatuor Ebene、HMF的Arcanto Quartet

作者: alma 时间: 2012-2-1 10:43

埃莫森四重奏演奏巴托克四重奏虽然得奖，但我认为不得“神”，他们鲜亮光滑和声以及刻意的技巧展示，对于巴 ...
670707 发表于 2012-1-31 21:45

我觉得爱莫森拉得很刺，(不是次)
显得非常激情，不太习惯。

作者: Jwang 时间: 2012-2-1 10:57
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2012-2-1 11:17 编辑

我觉得爱莫森拉得很刺，(不是次)
显得非常激情，不太习惯。
alma 发表于 2012-2-1 10:43

很对，这就是我要讲的比较现代。在我上面给出的连接中的录象中,他们在谈到巴托克第一号四重奏时就谈到第一号基本还是沿袭着贝多芬的风格,也实地拉了下来说明。

我不是学音乐的,但我体会是,Emersions Quartet在演奏巴托克时存心少用所谓的Legato,即音符不连在一起,这样很具有现代感,同时在很多人耳中就比较"刺”。在听感上比较难以接受。而Legato用的多，就比较流畅。

作者: alma 时间: 2012-2-1 23:25

很对，这就是我要讲的比较现代。在我上面给出的连接中的录象中,他们在谈到巴托克第一号四重奏时就谈到第一 ...
Jwang 发表于 2012-2-1 10:57

谢谢老兄指点。这套爱莫森是我几年前听的印象，当时没听习惯，直接退掉了。看来还是要收进重新听下。

作者: Roseknight_gao 时间: 2012-2-2 16:59
埃莫森组拉的很拉风的，当年刚入耳就非常喜欢；现代音乐本身就很少再用抒情性来表达情感了；为什么说贝多芬的SQ先锋，就是因为在他的SQ中就已经有这种不依靠旋律来烘托情感的体现。对于现代音乐来说，突破和无拘无束是最重要的意义。

作者: Roseknight_gao 时间: 2012-2-2 17:02
所以这种现代音乐的诠释，就是要果断、刻薄、放纵；就像欣赏后现代主义的油画一样，有些是用色彩，就些就是线条，更甚者就是一盆颜料撒上来，但需要高度的技巧铺垫在偶然性之后。

作者: Jwang 时间: 2012-2-5 01:36
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2012-2-5 05:16 编辑

前几天收到了Naive的Ⅴegh的巴托克四重奏。我从第三开始直到第六,仔细地听了遍。相比之下, 我比较喜欢这六首四重奏中的3,4,5和6。我对这个Vegh的演奏非常喜欢。尽管他们的处理手法比较古典,有的人会认为他们更了解匈牙利的文化,从而他们的演奏更能体现巴托克的作品的内涵。这个演奏的录音也是很好的。

对我来讲,就象我在上面所说,我推荐Emerson, Alban Berg和这个Vegh的。和M&A54年Ⅴegh的单声道的那个版本来比,我推荐Naive的。Naive的录音好,这点对室内乐很重要。Naive的版本更流畅和优美。

Telefunken在1972年曾录过个版本,这是它那个的封面。我估计Naive的那个录音可能就是Telefunken72年的那个。按照Naiⅴe的CD封里介绍,这也是1972年录的。

1973年11月留声机杂志对这个演奏的评论.这个评论的作者更推崇朱利亚和匈牙利四重奏的演奏。
[attach]42707[/attach]

BARTOK. String Quartets—complete. Vegh Quartet (Sandor Vegh, Sandor ZOldy, violins; Georges Janzer, viola, Paul Szabo, cello). Telefunken SKH25083-T/1-3 (three records, nas, L7-80). Booklet included.
Selected comparisons:

Novak Qt (1/70) SAL3686, 3693-4

Juilliard Qt Nos. 1 and 2 (5/66) (3/70) (R) 61118 Nos. 3 and 4 (5/66) (4/70) (R) 61119 Nos. 5 and 6 (5/66) (5/70) (R) 61120
It has never been disputed, and I doubt if it ever seriously will be, that BartOk's Quartets are one of the central achievements of twentieth-century music. Yet they are rarely heard in the concert hall, so everyone needs recordings. All the above sets maintain an encouragingly high standard both in terms of execution and in their grasp of this music's sometimes difficult idiom. Yet the interpretations are in some— not all—cases rather different, and, after continued listening to these and other versions, one's preferences shift between one ensemble and another from one movement to another. As so often these days, categorical recommendations are nearly impossible. Thus, although the Juilliard's qualities are the easiest to define and their approach is the most consistent, it does not follow that their readings are always the best. Such virtuosity is highly persuasive, and this group is almost unsurpassable in savage dance movements such as the Allegro molto of Quartet No. 2, which they throw off with extraordinary verve; in comparison the Novak, while perfectly secure, sound too low-temperatured. However, the new Vegh performance measures up excellently, and this team is as ghostly as can be in the coda, which is pp and prestissimo. In the finales of Nos. 4 and 5, also, the Juilliard memorably project the music's astonishing combination of physical exhilaration and intellectual density, yet the Vegh, again, are almost as good, and in the later work manage this with a smoother tone.

With the Juilliard every detail is sharply defined, absolutely decisive, and this is particularly valuable in, say, the first movement of No. 5 where each of the numerous themes—and their inversions during the recapitulation—needs to be fully characterised. The Novak are unable to convey this movement's enormous inner tension, yet in the Burletta of the last Quartet, a piece that, with the preceding March, might have been composed especially to display the Juilliard's powers, it is the Vegh who come off best, ramming home every detail of this outlandish inspiration. The Vegh seem preferrable, too, in the allpizzicato fourth movement of No. 4: the Juilliard, as ever, are more insistent with their accents, but the Vegh's lines are tauter and they achieve a strikingly remote ppp. Their Telefunken recording is, of course, the most recent, yet it is not, in general, markedly superior to the older Philips/Novak or CBS/Juilliard pressings and so does not afford them much advantage, although there are exceptions such as the opening movement of No. 5 where the Vegh benefit in the most complex passages from a very clear recorded sound. At times the Juilliard achieve clarity at the expense of dynamics, as in the finale of No. 2, where at, say, fig. 2, they make little distinction between p, mp and mf; the Vegh connect best with the Dostoievskian gloom of this slow movement.

As the reader will by now have gathered, choice usually wavers between the Juilliard and Vegh ensembles, yet there is fine playing by the Novak also. The latter perfectly understand, for example, the rapid shifts of tension necessary in the central movement of No. 1, and they are marvellously light and delicate in the all-muted prestissimo of No. 4. One had expected the later quartets to bring out the differences between these groups most clearly, but this is not so. All three violists, for instance, play the opening solo of No. 6 most beautifully, and there really is little to choose between their treatments of the twin slow movements of No. 5. In a sense, No. 3 is a more severe test than its successors, as this single-movement piece is the most hermetic of the series. But they all do well. As usual, the Juilliard defines each phrase most clearly and produce a more turbulent effect in fast passages, yet the Novak also convey this music's disturbing internal stress, and the Vegh offer an interpretation that is impressive in both its lucidity and avoidance of extremes. The Seconda Parte of this work is another of the few places where Telefunken's recording is significantly better than its older rivals.

In the slow finale of No. 6, the end towards which all the others lead, it is the Vegh who are most searching. And yet they are surpassed, here as elsewhere, by the Hungarian Quartet on DG, whose now-deleted set is the one to which I turn most often for personal listening. No other team has identified so completely with these great works, and it must be hoped that their recordings will return to circulation. Meanwhile, one must end, unhelpfully, by saying that most listeners would be happy with any of the above sets—providing they don't hear the other two. M.H.

作者: Jwang 时间: 2012-2-5 02:00
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2012-2-5 02:12 编辑

1988年12月留声机杂志对Emersion的演奏有评论。见下文。

BARTOK. STRING QUARTETS. Emerson Quartet * (Eugene Drucker, Philip Setzer, vns; Lawrence Dutton, Va; David Finckel, ye). DG ® (D423 657. 2GH2 (two discs, nas: 149 minutes: DDD).

No. 1 in A minor; No. 2 in A minor; No. 3 in C sharp minor; No. 4 in C major; No. 5 in B flat major; No. 6 in 0 major.

Selected CD comparisons:

TakácsQt (3/85) HCD12502/04.2

Alban Berg Qt (11/87) CDS7 47720-8

Végh Qt (3/87) E771 7/9

A new cycle of Bartok quartets has to be pretty special if it is to stand out in such select company as the above. The Emerson Quartet's is, and it does. Their nearest counterparts are the Alban Berg on EMI, in that both ensembles are powerful and refined, pay close attention to the letter of the score, and excel in virtuoso teamwork. The differences are that the Emerson are better recorded, are accommodated on two CDs (the Berg are on three), do not suffer from embarrassing mis-readings, show more imagination in countless details and, perhaps surprisingly, outshine their rivals on their 'home territory', namely the virtuosic 'middle' quartets.

The impression one gains from these recordings (I have not seen the Quartet in the concert hall) is of massive tonal projection and superlative clarity, each textural strand coloured and made audible to a degree possibly unrivalled in the recorded history of these works. DG's close, brightly-lit, yet never oppressive recording quality must share some of the credit for that, of course. Combine this with controlled vehemence, head long velocity and razor-sharp unanimity (any fast movement from quartets two to five can serve as illustration) and you have a formidable alliance of virtues.

At the other end of the scale, precision ofsonority in a movement like the central night-music of No. 4 is no less remarkable, and attention to details of accent is scrupulous—for example, I wondered whether the first violin had fluffed a couple of 'snapped' pizzicatos in the following movement; in fact he differentiates between snaps with and without sJorzando.

It may nevertheless be felt that this imaginative variety of sound is less conspicuous at low dynamic levels and in passages of more or less romantic expressiveness. Indeed, at the outset of No. I I suspected this would be as real a deficiency as it is with the Alban Berg—after all this work is supposed to be Bartok's 'funeral dirge' for his romance with Stefi Geyer, not a recreation of its passionate high-points. That suspicion is soon dispelled, however—as soon, in fact, as the viola's appassionalo recitative on the third page. It returns, 1 have to say, in the outer movements of No. 6, where the sense of loss which surely lies behind the music is less fully registered than it might be. Again, others have found more inwardness in the opening of No. 3 and more mystery, astonishment even, in the slow movements of No. 5. So! 10510 'one-hair-of-the-bow' huskiness may be something the Emerson could afford to deploy a little more daringly.

These reservations are not meant to deter anyone from buying a set which deserves to be hugely successful and which would be a worthy awardwinner. And I certainly don't want to imply that the performances are inexpressive; on the contrary, they are compellingly intense and passionate, and by no means indiscriminately so. But it would be a pity if the Emerson were to eclipse the rather different merits of the Végh (Astrbe Auvidis/Pinnacle) who may not command such a kaleidoscopic range of colour but who eonjour up more interesting shadows and probe into more mysterious, intimate corners (the Takács on Hungaroton/Conifer take a broadly similar approach, without reaching quite the same level of artistry). Presumably DG's commitment to the Emerson means we will have to wait that much longer for the return of the classic Hungarian Quartet recordings to the catalogue; and the famous earlier mono Végh set on Columbia is no less worthy of reinstatement. But for the moment it is a pleasure to welcome the appearance of what must be one of the most exciting chamber music recordings of recent years. D.J.F.

总之,Emersion, Alban Berg的诠释比较现代,而匈牙利和Ⅴegh的比较古典。在这中,无所谓对错,有的只是个人偏好。我手里还没的,另个比较著名的是Takács。我从Spotify上听了下和读了些有关他们的评论。Takács是沿袭古典的线路的。

作者: shinelb 时间: 2012-2-5 08:26
唱片不在身边，不好乱说。将这个好贴顶上去吧。

作者: Jwang 时间: 2012-2-6 12:09
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2012-2-6 12:30 编辑

音乐讲到底要听，这里我上个ABQ的巴托克的四重奏第六号的视频。

第一乐章

http://115.com/file/dpytoulh#
Alban_Berg_Quartet,_Bartok_String_Quartet_No.6,_1st_Mov.flv
第二乐章

http://115.com/file/c2b53c17#
Alban_Berg_Quartet,_Bartok_String_Quartet_No.6,_2nd_Mov.flv

第三乐章第一部分

http://115.com/file/an4luz8l#
Alban_Berg_Quartet,_Bartok_String_Quartet_No.6,_3rd_Mov_Pt1.flv

第三乐章第二部分

http://115.com/file/dpyuyif4#
Alban_Berg_Quartet,_Bartok_String_Quartet_No.6,_3rd_Mov_Pt2.flv

第四乐章

http://115.com/file/an4r4gw6#
Alban_Berg_Quartet,_Bartok_String_Quartet_No.6,_4th_Mov.flv

想上视频，可惜不工作，只能下载了。

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