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标题: 头版LP的音质必定好于再刻？ [打印本页]
作者: Jwang 时间: 2013-5-28 12:51
标题: 头版LP的音质必定好于再刻？
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2013-5-28 12:56 编辑
头版LP的音质必定好于再刻？
对很多烧友来讲这好象是不可推翻的真理。而对我来讲这是又一个神话。我的观点很清楚，不能一概而论，要分不同的唱片具体来讲才有意义。同样TAS的HP 近来的一片评论也表明了我这观点。红字处是比较重要的部分。
BACK IN THE HABIT: MERCURY LIVING PRESENCE, VINYL BOX-SET #2
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Long live that Mercury Living Presence sound.
UMG/Decca Classics has just released the second official, limited-edition vinyl reissue box-set containing five classic Mercury recordings pressed onto 180gram vinyl. This “Collector’s Edition” includes original artwork, quality packaging, and excellent liner notes containing Michael Grey’s essay on the history of MLP and an article by Thomas Fine detailing the Fine microphone technique (originally published in Tape Op Magazine).
There have been volumes written about the legendary MLP sound, specifically the three-microphone stereo recordings produced between 1956 and 1967. So, I will limit myself to the specifics of this particular box-set. The two essays included in the box-set provide detailed information that any Mercury enthusiast, or novice, will enjoy. Both essays revolve around the same axis; the Mercury recording team, led by Robert Fine and Wilma Cozart, took great pride in the quality of their recordings, cutting no corners to achieve the sound they desired. (Listening to these new Mercury LPs, I realize how much pride recording engineers must have felt for their products during the early days of stereo.)
Mercury LPs have always been known for their wide dynamics and lively presence. When Mercury went stereo, Mr. Fine fed his three-microphones into Ampex 300-3, three-channel tape machines. Two individual machines were always employed for stereo, resulting in A and B tapes – both first generation, just in case one tape was damaged – and another pair of tape machines used explicitly for mono (using the signal from the center microphone alone). Once Mr. Fine had set the microphones to the desired location, typically hung on ropes, the orchestral dynamics and balance would be in the hands of the conductor. Thus, the three-channel tapes were actuallythe “master tape”. To realize a stereo LP from these tapes, the three-channels would be directly mixed down to the first generation lacquer (this is the 3-to-2 mixdown process that Mercury always employed). When this master lacquer was being cut, Wilma Cozart (the original musical producer) would perform the (three-channel-to-two-channel) mixdown as if a live event.
This is as good a time as any to mention that the LPs in this box-set have been sourced from the digital masters made by Wilma Cozart Fine. Yes, the original tapes still exist, but that would mean someone besides the original producer would have to perform the “live” 3-to-2 mix-down. Second generation stereo masters were made when the original LPs were cut, and these are what Speakers Corner used as a source for their reissues, but these contain an added amount of tape hiss because they are second generation (the additional noise coming from the source alone). According to Tom Fine (son of Wilma Cozart and Robert Fine), the reissue team, including producer Raymond McGill, decided that “it was better to use the highest resolution 3-2 mix from the original producer” for these new LPs, and that is exactly what they did.
In 1989, Wilma Cozart Fine started working with mastering engineer Dennis Drake to make digital masters of the Mercury recordings. After a year of research and testing, Cozart Fine finally found a digital recording chain that was up to her exacting standards. Cozart Fine used the first generation three-track source (either ½” tape or 35mm), played through the same Westrex mixing console she had used to mix the original LPs decades earlier. The analog signal was sent through a dCS 9000 analog-to-digital converter at 24-bit/44.1kHz, then sent to a Harmonia Mundi Acoustica digital buss (with a re-dither module by Weiss Engineering) with an output of 16-bit/44.1kHz sent to a Sony 1630 recorder and eventually stored on U-Matic videotape. Therefore, the digital mix was first generation; no post-production editing or outboard effects used in the entire process. At some point in time, the master 1630 U-Matic tapes were converted and stored on hard drives. These are the last stereo mixes ever made by Cozart Fine and these have been used for all Mercury Living Presence CDs and the first vinyl reissue; the Collectors Edition Box-Set #1. (Around 125 discs were released between 1990 and 1999.) [1]
After listening to these new LPs (and the Speakers Corner reissues), I can see why audiophile-quality reissues of Mercury Living Presence vinyl would be desirable. Although an original pressing captures that classic Mercury sound, there are noticeable weaknesses that have nothing to do with the recordings themselves and have everything to do with the quality of the vinyl technologies of the day (not to mention the poor monitoring systems). Of course, there will be analog freaks who will question the use of digital masters and I must admit that I love AAA recordings, but there is no replacement for the accuracy and authenticity of the mix. And the new LPs happen to sound incredible.
The LPs in this set were cut by Maarten de Boer (who also cut the first Collectors Edition box-set LPs) at Emil Berliner Studios in Hanover, Germany. All of the LPs in this collection benefit from an increased clarity, improved dynamic range, and a more developed lower register.
作者: 小磊磊 时间: 2013-5-28 13:16
翻译过来吧，我刚买了第一版水星的lp包子
作者: yxdwh 时间: 2013-5-28 15:14
刚上黑胶，英文有限，求中文翻译。
作者: LCL123 时间: 2013-5-28 15:34
刚上黑胶，英文有限，求中文翻译。
yxdwh 发表于 2013-5-28 15:14 
到时候CH半价处理给我好了
作者: sm163 时间: 2013-5-28 15:45
看来你的黑胶毒越来越深了到时候CH半价处理给我好了
LCL123 发表于 2013-5-28 15:34
你过来，我帮你搬
作者: LCL123 时间: 2013-5-28 18:25
你过来，我帮你搬
sm163 发表于 2013-5-28 15:45
作者: lintianshi 时间: 2013-5-28 18:30
刚入黑胶之门，楼主快请翻译一下
作者: wyapple 时间: 2013-5-28 21:05
水星的LP包子还是蛮不错的，都是经典名盘，音质也很好。
作者: dx300 时间: 2013-5-28 21:39
本帖最后由 dx300 于 2013-5-28 21:46 编辑
借助Google翻译， 这篇文章说明了首批CD和再版黑胶用的数码母带还是停留在16比特/44.1KHz)上, 这就可解释了为何头版LP的声音要好于首版CD和再版黑胶！
数码转制的瓶颈在于采用的数字格式标准太低了。 居然还是CD白皮书规定的格式， 没有用到DSD/DXD高规格！ 好在原始的模拟磁带（真正的母带！）还在， 希望能保持优良电气性能来再制作一次高规格的数码转制！
转换路径： dCS 9000 analog-to-digital converter （24-bit/44.1kHz）----a Harmonia Mundi Acoustica digital buss（16-bit/44.1kHz）----Sony 1630 recorder---------U-Matic videotape.
我得出的结论一是 目前水星的录音 还是头版的黑胶好， 除非拿现存的模拟母带重新制作高规格数码母带。结论二是 头版CD,再版黑胶和SACD，都是用同一个数码母带制作的， 都是一样的！ 图省事的，找SACD版本， 有黑胶情节的 就上黑胶。首版CD没有价值！
作者: sm163 时间: 2013-5-29 08:52
意思是还是头版黑胶好
作者: lintianshi 时间: 2013-5-29 23:36
看来关注的地方都错了……
我本来关注的地方是和头版相比，同样使用模拟母带的2版和3版，差距明不明显，而不是进入数码时代之后的事情
作者: yes! 时间: 2013-5-30 02:24
再版第一套的6张买来听过，在我自己及我一个朋友的系统上跟原版对比，再版的信息量差得太远了！
作者: Jwang 时间: 2013-5-30 02:42
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2013-5-30 02:49 编辑
看来关注的地方都错了……
我本来关注的地方是和头版相比，同样使用模拟母带的2版和3版，差距明不明显， ...
lintianshi 发表于 2013-5-29 23:36
也有啊，见我下贴。但是从这个命题来讲，这也是对的。假定HP是对的话（一般来讲，我还是比较相信HP的评论的，特别是对唱片的评价），这里有二个可以让我们思考的。
1。现代数码录音和模拟录音的差别。
2。头版和复刻的差别。在现代模拟录音技术和重放技术的发展下，复刻超出原版完全是可能的。
在下面的贴中，他们比较了原版，Classic Records, Chesky Records, Analogue Productions的三个不同的复刻版。
作者: Jwang 时间: 2013-5-30 02:48
ANALOGUE PRODUCTIONS RCA REISSUE: “SCHEHERAZADE” LSC-2446
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Analogue Productions RCA Reissue: Scheherazade [LSC-2446]
Chad Kassem has been updating LP pressings of some classic RCA recordings, using today’s state-of-the-art technology found at his own record pressing plant in Salinas, Kansas, (Quality Record Pressings) and released through his Analogue Productions label. None of his resurrections is more gorgeous than his revivification of the classic Fritz Reiner/Chicago Scheherazade, itself a knockout of a recording in its Living Stereo issue. (Except, maybe Analogue Productions new version of the Reiner, Pines of Rome.)
We compared this new 200-gram, 33-rpm LP from Analogue Productions with the original RCA Living Stereo issue, and Classic Records 33 rpm version, and were surprised at the outcome. Why? Because to these ears, the new Analogue Productions version was the more relaxed and natural sounding of the bunch. The sound is as it should be, inviting the listener into the music and entirely consonant with Reiner’s readings. This transfer bespeaks a confidence in the sound on the master tape, without the artificial touch-ups (a brightness) later found in the original Living Stereo pressing and the more pronounced jiggering in the version from Classic Records.
RCA graced this recording with some of their best engineering. Rimsky’s orchestration seems tailor-made for a sonic showcase and this is exactly what the RCA engineers gave Reiner’s well-nigh perfect reading. It is a reading of great subtlety and romanticism, which brings this too-often played piece to a newfound life. And so worth getting to know again if you’ve drifted away from it.
If ever there were a must-have LP in the recent wave of audiophile vinyl re-incarnations, this is it. Treat yourself and thank Kassem for doing it the justice it deserves.
~HP
Comment by Joey Weiss:
I’ve always held my original RCA pressing of this classic Reiner/CSO as a personal treasure. The strength of this recording – perhaps all RCA “shaded dog” LPs for that matter – lives in the mid frequencies. They might as well have used the slogan, “living midrange”, instead of “living stereo”, because that is just what they deliver. This particular recordings strength lies in the string tone, especially the solo violin, representing Scheherazade herself, whose tale is woven throughout the four movements. The original pressing is simply lovely, translating everything that those RCA’s do best. The violins are natural, the cellos romantic, and the trumpet calls are precise and penetrating. Unfortunately, this pressing is not without its many faults, as it is harmonically thin in the bass and overall dynamics are weak, almost shrill at the peaks. There is room for sonic improvement, most likely due to the lackluster vinyl pressing technologies of the day (at least, compared with what we have now), as subsequent reissues showcase.
One will immediately notice that the Classic Records (200 gram) redo sounds much darker and deeper than the original RCA, with increased tonal coloration throughout the harmonic range, especially in the mid to lower registers (double basses, cellos, violins, brass, et cetera). This LP takes the dramatic approach – a highly colored sweetness – and runs with it. The sound comes off as an interpretation of what they thought the recording should sound like, and to that end, the sound is not one of naturalness, but bursting with hi-fi spectaculars. The sound image pushes outward with a confrontational edge (there is even brightness in the higher harmonics) and a jazzed-up midrange that will impress any first time listener. But subtleties and nuances are generally passed over in favor of the harmonic onslaught (check out the rapid trumpet blasts in the last movement, which are uncomfortably forward in the mix, removed from their proper place in the mix). This version presents the performance with such an enhanced character, you will surely miss out on the delicateness that makes this particular recording so special.
I must admit that this Classic Records pressing is not without its charms – an epic widening of the stage, huge dynamics, and velvety rich violins – but these traits only further the “super-sound” that defines this approach. The steroidal textures and cavernous dynamics make for a thrilling finale, but is perhaps more explosive than it really needs to be, instead of enraptured revelation, there is unrelenting intensity.
In the late 1980’s, Chesky Records Inc. released an LP of this RCA recording. According to the liner notes, they sought to eliminate any “unnecessary electronic coloration” and used all-tube electronics during the mastering process. Compared with the Classic Records LP, the Chesky sounds much more natural, laid-back even, with more ambience and breathing room. Compared with the original LP, there is a great deal of improvement in terms of dynamic range, frequency range, and overall clarity (most likely due to the improvements in the physical vinyl pressing itself). The Chesky is cleaner sounding and simply more thrilling than the original, thanks to a widening of the dynamic and harmonic range. I prefer this pressing to the Classic Records reissue because the latter is way too forceful and overemphasized in comparison.
Moving along to the new Analogue Productions (AP) pressing, we find ourselves with an exceptionally natural and musical sounding LP. It is also devoid of the drastic coloration of the Classic Records reissue, thankfully, forgoing over-dramatization and focusing on realizing the full potential of the information captured on the tape (the same approach as the Chesky). To these ears, the sound is lovely, with an unforceful immediacy, one that will excite you as it entices you. And it also happens to brings back some of that magical RCA midrange.
Without a doubt, the AP pressing sounds much more natural than the Classic Records reissue; the sound is simply less forced, as if the notes and rhythms have more air to explore, more ambient Hall to reverberate, and more of the acoustic envelope to reveal. Dynamics are explosive and clean, and the vinyl is so damn quiet, you can turn it up without any hesitation (the LPs are being pressed at QRP and plated by Gary Salstrom). The solo violin is the heart of this recording and it’s supposed to sound seductive, and on this reissue, it does.
One thing is for certain; there is a lot more information coming through than on the original. The AP pressing takes the simplistic approach of the Chesky, but with a more developed sound, making the Chesky appear a bit subdued by comparison.
All the reissues mentioned above are superior to the original when it comes to bottom-end frequency (the original was seriously lacking fluid bass), deepening of tonal texture, the spatial imaging of the instruments, and the clarity of detail. The staging of the orchestra is also wider, and deeper, on all of the reissues than on the original LP. Regardless, the original contains something special, an essence that the others can’t touch, perhaps stemming from sentimentality more than anything else, perhaps not. I keep thinking that the new Analogue Productions reissue sounds like the most realized version of this recording, or, simply, what it would have sounded like if the tapes were fresh today.
I find the new Analogue Productions LP to be a wonderful representation of this RCA. An original “shaded dog” will delight with its antiquity and grace, but these days, they are not only difficult to find in pristine condition (well-loved LPs are also well-played LPs), but you will find they are also rather costly. Same goes for the Classic Records and the Chesky, both out-of-print and commanding relatively high prices on the used market, if you can even find one. (Considering the sound on this new reissue, those prices may quickly tumble.) If you are interested in hearing this classic RCA in all of its natural glory, you needn’t look any further than Chad Kassem’s latest offering. If this is any indication of Analogue Productions current batch of RCA reissues (approximately 24 more on the way), it just may be a new golden age for the modern vinyl listener.
~Joey Weiss
*For our listening evaluations we used the following LP pressings: [1] an original RCA “shaded dog” pressing [LSC 2446 7s/1s]; [2] the Classic Records, 200 gram, 33rpm repressing, mastering by Bernie Grundman; [3] Chesky Records repressing, mastering by Jack Adelman; [4] Analogue Productions 200 gram, 33rpm repressing, mastering by Ryan Smith at Sterling Sound. All four LPs of Scheherazade we listened to were reproduced using the original master tapes as the source.
Each LP was cleaned with the Audio Desk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner before playing. We listened to each pressing and recorded our findings, at times resorting to a comparison of short passages alone for a more shrewd analysis. We repeated the listening sessions multiple times over a three-week duration. During our comparisons, one of us was always listening to the LPs completely blind; never knowing the exact pressing being played, and in random order. We made sure to evaluate and compare the pressings many times over. By the end of these sessions, the differences between the LPs were quite obvious to us, owing as much to the varying characters of the pressings themselves as the transparency of our sound systems. [~JW]
Analogue Productions RCA Reissue: Scheherazade [LSC-2446]
Available September 10th
Technical notes:
Mastered from the original analog master tapes by Ryan Smith at Sterling Sound on a VMS 80.
Heavy duty old-school tip-on jacket
Pressed at Quality Record Pressings
200 gram vinyl / Flat profile pressing
Plated by Gary Salstrom
作者: robinwood 时间: 2013-5-30 16:18
看E文太累
作者: wayned 时间: 2013-5-30 20:22
其实在威玛发恩上世纪九十年代初的转制过程中，三轨合成两轨时，已经和当初头版黑胶制作时的三转二有了明显的不同。
比较过谢林的那张克莱斯勒小品，排除其他因素，黑胶的小提琴定位要明显好于头版CD。
作者: gzfs 时间: 2013-5-30 23:07
就算有模拟母带在手，经过那么漫长的岁月，状态普遍都应该不如头版黑胶的状态好了。
作者: jaki 时间: 2013-5-31 10:08
33转再版胜过头版很少，大概不到5%，如果是45转的再版基本上是95%胜过头版。
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