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楼主: shinelb

25#
发表于 2013-2-23 16:34:37 | 只看该作者
卡拉扬封杀切利毕达凯?!卡拉扬挡住了切利比达奇三十多年?!
实在受不了这帮台湾业余写手们胡编滥 ...
bodyheat 发表于 2013-2-23 16:22
台湾人写乐评有时像是在写一部史诗,追求浪漫主义的风格,很多地方是有失严谨,呵呵。


点评

显然出于“无知”的不负责任地污蔑陷害那叫“造谣诽谤”,不能叫“浪漫主义”。  发表于 2013-2-23 16:57

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26#
发表于 2013-2-23 17:13:50 | 只看该作者
bodyheat兄站出来就该正本清源啊!呵呵。

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27#
发表于 2013-2-23 17:54:09 | 只看该作者
bodyheat兄站出来就该正本清源啊!呵呵。
狗儿念经 发表于 2013-2-23 17:13


靠!给切粉们添堵的事儿非得俺来是吗? 您真仗义~~~

点评

不明真相的切粉强力围观中~~~  发表于 2013-2-24 00:08

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28#
发表于 2013-2-23 18:14:10 | 只看该作者
靠!给切粉们添堵的事儿非得俺来是吗? 您真仗义~~~
bodyheat 发表于 2013-2-23 17:54

没事啊,俺就是切尼粉丝,哈哈,谁要堵上那都是自找的,关键是疏通,疏通是一种自我修复能力,哈哈。真粉丝还怕那点堵不是?俺不会堵的。

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29#
发表于 2013-2-23 23:58:48 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2013-2-24 00:11 编辑

又把切利的勃四拿出来听了下。为了比较,又听瓦尔特的勃四。我还是认为我上面讲的切利的三点是对的。切利他虽然讲音乐是追求真理,但实际上他是具有唯美主义的倾向。特别是看他排练的录象。就从他的勃四来讲,神散是绝对不存在的。他不同于瓦尔特,但有神。单就勃四来讲,他对音乐的美的追求大胜于瓦尔特。我这里不是贬低瓦尔持,瓦尔特的勃四我也喜欢。有的地方或许对美的追求超过对作品解释。但是什么是作品原本真正的解释呢?

单就布交来说,我可以说如下的话。如果你喜欢布交,不管你喜欢不喜欢,你没听切利的,你还没入门。就象富老战时的贝交,如果你没听过,你还不知道山外有更高的山。

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30#
发表于 2013-2-24 00:22:05 | 只看该作者
又把切利的勃四拿出来听了下。为了比较,又听瓦尔特的勃四。我还是认为我上面讲的切利的三点是对的。切利他虽 ...
Jwang 发表于 2013-2-23 23:58

哈哈,我来顶Jwang兄!曾经一位哥们怎么也听不进去布鲁克纳,就是切尼突然醍醐灌顶般的终于打开那扇大门!最近十几年来,最具颠覆性的布鲁克纳在我看来正是切尼!
除了布鲁克纳,切尼的勃拉姆斯以及舒曼俺认为也相当优秀!

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31#
发表于 2013-2-24 00:28:47 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 狗儿念经 于 2013-2-24 00:40 编辑

不过,我一贯的看法是,把晚年的切尼与历史上的大指挥家们横向比较压根没意义,他们压根不在艺术的同一空间。拿肖斯塔科维奇的观点来讲:切尼毁誉参半,这恰恰说明了晚年切尼的成功,那是极其辉煌的成功(老萧说如果一部作品一半人很喜欢,另一半很不喜欢,那意味着你成功了,非常成功!)。

如果仔细比较一下朱里尼晚年同样的慢,切尼怎么样就一清二楚了,俺以为在慢这一节上,朱里尼是没法跟切尼相提并论的。

点评

单就布鲁克纳而言,朱里尼也不是特别成功。不过他总体上的艺术境界还是比切利高的  发表于 2013-2-24 11:17
不明真相朱粉强力围观中  发表于 2013-2-24 07:43
赞同,俺觉得朱里尼的慢,那是真慢。切利的“慢”是把作品精神内核的时空拉长放大,完全不是一个层面的慢。  发表于 2013-2-24 00:47

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32#
发表于 2013-2-24 01:00:00 | 只看该作者
reiner  发表于 5 分钟前
赞同,俺觉得朱里尼的慢,那是真慢。切利的“慢”是把作品精神内核的时空拉长放大,完全不是一个层面的慢。

哈哈,又来一同好!
楼上有兄弟说切尼的长线条看似极具张力。。。。。。呵呵,我看来,把切尼的慢看成长线条就没对头了,那是弥漫的织体,并非长线条那么简单。朱里尼长线条倒是的,切尼不是,他是逐渐弥漫开来的织体,里面有内力在涌动,音乐织体的密度非常高,这绝不是一般人能轻易能做到的,老爷子超长的排练里有乾坤。

点评

切尼是从另一个角度去探索的。。。。  发表于 2014-8-1 10:51

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33#
发表于 2013-2-24 01:45:59 | 只看该作者
切利不能指挥歌剧,这就说明了很多问题。

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34#
发表于 2013-2-24 06:55:37 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2013-2-24 07:00 编辑

这是NYT 的一篇评论。特别是我高亮的红字处。很可惜,没听过他的现场。如有人讲他的指挥没张力,读读红字处的文字。


MUSIC: DEBUT OF SERGIU CELIBIDACHE
By John Rockwell
Published: February 28, 1984

IT is not often that a 72-year-old unknown makes his American debut leading a student orchestra at Carnegie Hall and attracts what looked like most of musical New York. Sergiu Celibidache did just that last night, conducting the Symphony Orchestra of the Curtis Institute of Music in what looked like a semi-pops program. The result was about as revelatory an experience, both thrilling and thought-provoking, as this writer has encountered in 25 years of regular concert-going.Mr. Celibidache is, of course, not quite unknown. Rumanian born and German trained, he was chosen as a young man to lead the Berlin Philharmonic in the interregnum between 1945 and 1948, when Wilhelm Furtw"angler was de-Nazified. Since then he has conducted here and there, but his increasingly imperious rehearsal demands, combined with his distaste for recordings, have turned him into a reclusive legend, especially on this continent.

Thus when the Curtis Institute convinced him to come to Philadelphia for an extended period of rehearsal and to make his debut here, at a ''gala 60th anniversary benefit concert'' for the institute, it was an event in advance. But what kind of event? Last night, we found out.

First of all, Mr. Celibidache really makes use of all that rehearsal. He stands on the podium, stolid and blunt, conducting from memory and chopping out the beat with both arms. But for vivid, almost shocking detail, this concert was unprecedented in my experience. Especially in overtly coloristic works like Debussy's ''Iberia'' and Prokofiev's ''Scythian Suite,'' which ended the evening (its second movement was encored), the sheer intensity of aural color was dazzling.

And this was a student orchestra; here and there its inexperience peeped out, as in some sour wind intonation in Wagner's ''Tristan und Isolde'' Love Death, but only against the crystalline backdrop of its playing the rest of the time. It is cliche to report that musicians in any great orchestral concert played like soloists united in spirit, but it really did sound that way last night.

Detail was only the beginning. Mr. Celibidache opened with Rossini's ''Gazza Ladra'' Overture, and immediately pronounced the strength of his musical personality. Tempos were not unusual, a little on the slow side, perhaps, but the dynamic range was astonishing. Most of the time, the music sounded preternaturally quiet, down to the tiny ping of the triangle. But the crescendos built inexorably, and the whole performance was suffused with a striking sense of legato, whole pages rising and falling like waves. Idiosyncratic, perhaps, but this was riveting music-making, and superbly individual.

At times, one wondered if all Mr. Celibidache's concentration on fine points - the consistent subtlety of the voicings, the elegance of even the smallest inner minutiae of phrasing - might vitiate old-fashioned animal energy. Yet the climaxes rang out as excitingly as one might wish, and the concluding Prokofiev positively roared with barbaric splendor. Even here, however, the playing was never needlessly, sloppily vulgar; there was always that wonderfully scrupulous coloration suffusing and shaping the loudest passages.

If, so far, Mr. Celibidache sounds like a songful sensualist, he revealed a different facet in the ''Tristan'' music. Here all the coloristic exactitude remained - never has the altered emotional world between the prelude and the onset of the Love Death sounded so dramatically telling. And yet the arching long line of the music, the fluctuating melodic impulse that lies at the heart of Wagner, propelled the performance forward.

That, then, was the thrilling part. The thought-provoking aspect has to do with the nature of Mr. Celibidache's career, past and future. His kind of loving, fanatical care represents the next logical step beyond such orchestral virtuosos as Mahler, Klemperer and Toscanini. But Mr. Celibidache pushed their perfectionism into the realm of the impractical; the famous conductors of today, those he says he discounts, were willing to make sacrifices for practicality. Of course, their performances nearly always sound as if they made those sacrifices. But the kind of close approach to the ideal that Mr. Celibidache strives for simply will not fit into the businesslike routine of today's musical world.

Or will it? The audience was full of America's musical movers and shakers, and if they chose to do some shaking for Mr. Celibidache, perhaps he could appear here with a professional orchestra - his own Munich Philharmonic or an American ensemble under special circumstances. It all depends, not on musical idealism, but on Mr. Celibidache's market and prestige value as an aging celebrity cult object. But let's not get as picky about motivations as he is about music. It would be tragic if last night's American debut were also his American farewell.




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35#
发表于 2013-2-24 11:08:36 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 scfan 于 2013-2-24 11:40 编辑
单就布交来说,我可以说如下的话。如果你喜欢布交,不管你喜欢不喜欢,你没听切利的,你还没入门。就象富老战时的贝交,如果你没听过,你还不知道山外有更高的山。
Jwang 发表于 2013-2-23 23:58

单就布八而言,不知J兄听过几个切利的版本?想来是应该不少于五个的,"山外有更高的山”嘛

小弟不才,只听过四个版本。DG的斯图加特、EMI的慕尼黑现场、ALTUS的东京现场、AUDIOR的里斯本现场。后面两个可以勉强听听,但也远没到宗师的水准。前面两个更加不入流。虽然Jochum的布交不是俺心目中第一排名,但甩开切利几条街毫无疑问。同样是ALTUS出品的东京现场,Jochum带班贝格的意境远胜切利带慕尼黑。

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36#
发表于 2013-2-24 11:13:34 | 只看该作者
这是NYT 的一篇评论。特别是我高亮的红字处。很可惜,没听过他的现场。如有人讲他的指挥没张力,读读红字处 ...
Jwang 发表于 2013-2-24 06:55
原来J兄是喜欢看评论听音乐的。可惜挑错了文字。
美国都没一个乐团能演好布鲁克纳,NYT一个卖报纸的又能算什么?

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