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楼主: alma

25#
发表于 2013-11-21 14:17:02 | 只看该作者
巴赫的生前不出名,确与他生活方式和埋头于宗教音乐的创作有关;而他的生后被埋没,我原本想归因于法国大革命,但实际上,在法国大革命之前很长一段时间,巴赫就被人们(也包括绝大多数的音乐家)忘怀了。实际上,被忘怀的,是整整一个时代的宗教音乐家或巴洛克时代的音乐家。古典主义运动和接踵而至的浪漫主义运动,抛却了一大批17世纪的音乐家及其音乐作品。主调音乐的兴起,几乎是音乐史上另起炉灶式的革命过程。

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26#
发表于 2013-11-24 11:50:20 | 只看该作者

巴赫为什么在一段时期內不太著名,上面Alma和M兄的说法都比较浪漫化。既从主调和复调音乐的进化,或从社会变迁的角度来讲。现在我们来看看牛津大学出版社出版的Malcolm Boyd写的Bach一书中的说法。

It was no doubt partly because of its complexity and technical difficulty that Bach’s music was not more widely disseminated during his lifetime, and was to some extent neglected after his death. The story of its rediscovery and revival has been told many times,but the romantic picture of a self-effacing genius whose music was unrecognized during his lifetime and neglected after his death, only to be rediscovered by a much later generation, is one that persists. Even had this been the case, it would have meant only that Bach, after his death, shared the fate of still better-known composers, such as Vivaldi and Telemann, whose music fell into even deeper oblivion and for a longer time. Handel was in this respect exceptional, his music kept alive after his death because of its accessibility (in every sense), because of the conservatism of English tastes, and because the king found it to his liking. But even Handel’s fame was perpetuated by a relatively small number of major works.

导致巴赫音乐不著名的部分原因是巴赫音乐技术上的复杂性。
宗教音乐并没有作为一种独立的艺术形式来表演。
在音乐史上,这种事经常发生。比如Vivaldi和Telemann,他们的音乐被后来发现的时期更长。

Popular notions about Bach’s reputation stand in need of revision in a number of respects. First, it is not true to say that his contemporaries admired him only as an executant. Certainly there are numerous accounts that stress his extraordinary skill as an organist and keyboard player, but the earliest reference to Bach in print—a passage in Mattheson’s Das beschu ̈tzte Orchestre (Hamburg, 1717)—extols the music, not the playing, of the ‘famous organist at Weimar’. By the time the publication of the Clavier-U ̈ bung was complete, in 1741–2, Bach was widely recognized as one of the finest composers of his time. Writing from Bologna to a correspondent in Fulda only three months before Bach’s death, the great Italian musician Padre Martini, who had certainly never heard him play, could say: ‘I consider it unnecessary to describe the singular merit of Sig. Bach since it is too well known and admired not only in Germany but all over Italy. I will say only that I hold it difficult to find a better Professore since every day he can claim to be among the finest in Europe.’ Bach may never have enjoyed the popular success that could come to an opera composer of international repute, such as Handel and Hasse, but his music was eulogized in terms similar to Padre Martini’s throughout the rest of the eighteenth century. Mozart and Beethoven knew and admired it, and by the time Beethoven died, in 1827, Bach had taken his place in the German consciousness alongside Handel, Haydn, and Mozart as one of music’s immortals, as Grillparzer’s funeral oration makes clear.

在贝多芬去世时,巴赫已经和亨德尔,海顿,莫扎特一样成为德国音乐中不朽的人物。

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27#
发表于 2013-11-24 23:18:45 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 alma 于 2013-11-24 23:19 编辑

Rock: 我觉得alma老兄有必要反思一下 论坛对他的价值以及他对论坛的价值!

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我最近发现一个问题,就是分身。以巴赫和莫扎特为例,巴赫的音乐严谨而理性,虽然音乐中的某些乐段相当动人,但总体上是比较枯燥的。所以,有的演绎家喜欢在其中增加变化,以GG为例子。对莫扎特来说,他总是显得活跃、流畅而华丽,所以,分身就是要控制以显高远,晚期的塞尔金为例。

分身,就是另一个方面!

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28#
发表于 2013-11-24 23:22:54 | 只看该作者
巴赫为什么在一段时期內不太著名,上面Alma和M兄的说法都比较浪漫化。既从主调和复调音乐的进化,或从社会 ...
Jwang 发表于 2013-11-24 11:50


你没听明白我的话,我不是仅仅黑巴赫,巴赫是我黑的起点而已。


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29#
发表于 2013-11-24 23:31:11 | 只看该作者
巴赫的生前不出名,确与他生活方式和埋头于宗教音乐的创作有关;而他的生后被埋没,我原本想归因于法国大革 ...
metamophore 发表于 2013-11-21 14:17


忠于历史,是最负责的。
我那晚酒喝多了,如有冒犯,请君原谅。
O(∩_∩)O~。


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30#
发表于 2013-11-24 23:34:42 | 只看该作者
忠于历史,是最负责的。
我那晚酒喝多了,如有冒犯,请君原谅。
O(∩_∩)O~。
alma 发表于 2013-11-24 23:31


alma兄,喝酒的危害不亚于听马勒哈!

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31#
发表于 2013-11-24 23:45:57 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 alma 于 2013-11-24 23:47 编辑

dickhu  发表于 3 天前
展开来说说,有兴趣听听。

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我作为77--87的一代,可以反思的事情太多了,这是从自由主义走向集权主义的一代,我当年完全不能相信30年后的样子了。你在大学时相信吗?我们是多么丑陋的一代,与当年我们的使命是完全不相符的!

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32#
发表于 2013-11-25 00:04:57 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 alma 于 2013-11-25 00:13 编辑
巴赫为什么在一段时期內不太著名,上面Alma和M兄的说法都比较浪漫化。既从主调和复调音乐的进化,或从社会 ...
Jwang 发表于 2013-11-24 11:50

巴赫的不朽,是谁的不朽?
请教王版?你这一次又故意成为我的靶子。

这是我的歌唱。





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33#
发表于 2013-11-25 00:24:17 | 只看该作者
rock  发表于 5 天前
我觉得alma老兄有必要反思一下 论坛对他的价值以及他对论坛的价值!

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你最好找个理由把我K掉,以显示你管理的能力。

点评

论坛版主基于论坛管理原则管理论坛, 另一方面,我的管理能力不体现在论坛管理上.  发表于 2013-11-25 06:09

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34#
发表于 2013-11-25 00:44:14 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 alma 于 2013-11-25 01:01 编辑
dickhu  发表于 3 天前
展开来说说,有兴趣听听。

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我作为77--87的一代,可以反思的事情太多 ...
alma 发表于 2013-11-24 23:45

我们是广场上的一代,荣誉是我们的,耻辱也是我们的。
不是我们这代的,最好滚蛋,离我越远越好,滚得越远越好。

点评

老李,广场指64运动吧?  发表于 2013-12-8 22:51

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35#
发表于 2013-11-25 01:10:26 | 只看该作者
巴赫为什么在一段时期內不太著名,上面Alma和M兄的说法都比较浪漫化。既从主调和复调音乐的进化,或从社会 ...
Jwang 发表于 2013-11-24 11:50


我多么的鄙视你,居然用文献说话,而不是以听感为由,真是错误百出啊。

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36#
发表于 2013-11-25 09:16:47 | 只看该作者
我还是觉得巴赫的音乐之所以不流行,是因为很难进入,就象前面朋友所说的在技术上很难,很复杂。
对于GG,我只认为他是巴赫的一种可能,他并不能代表巴赫。历史上,演奏巴赫的大师太多了。GG也就是沧海一粟而已。

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