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楼主: shinelb

37#
发表于 2012-11-3 23:51:59 | 只看该作者
你在讲的是要从听音乐的重播中听出演奏者的琴是否是某种特殊的古琴,比如Guadagini。这个我说是听不出的。 ...
Jwang 发表于 2012-11-3 11:46


Jwang兄这个结论下得很不严谨啊。

首先,您没有说清楚这个测试是怎么做的。是拿两把大家都没听过的琴,让大家猜哪一把是古琴、哪一把是现代琴?还是先让大家听清楚两把琴的音色,然后猜每一段演奏是用的哪一把琴?如果是前者,那就不能说明两把不同的琴的音色无法分辨,只说明人们不能泛泛地区分“新琴”与“古琴”的音色。

其次,这测试是特意用两把音色接近的琴呢,还是任意拿了两把呢?一把仿制的斯特拉迪瓦里的音色当然要比瓜内里更接近真斯特拉迪瓦里的音色,因此就更难分辨。

第三,这个百分之五十以上是“人”还是“人次”?我认为不大可能是“人次”,因为找个黑猩猩扔硬币都可以达到百分之五十的错误率,而不是百分之五十“以上”。如果是百分之五十以上的“人”,那就说明有不到百分之五十的人确实有这个判断能力,而不是瞎蒙的。

另外,您所列的这些影响音色的因素,我认为少了最重要的几个:琴弦、琴弓、还有最最重要的:演奏者是谁。

您认为录音、重播这些能彻底改变音色吗?这样的话,不同器材放帕瓦罗蒂岂不是该像不同的人了?实际上一个熟人的嗓音我们在电话里都能分辨出来。这是因为我们熟悉人类的嗓音,而不够熟悉琴音。

我觉得经过训练的人可以知道琴音中那些特点是受哪些外在因素影响,因此就可以在一定程度上区分不同的琴。要做到100%当然不容易,但是“不能分辨,句号”就未免太过武断了。

我自己听小提琴听得少,不太注意音色区别。但也有些时候会注意到,比如格鲁米欧晚年的巴赫小提琴与大键琴奏鸣曲用的琴与他大多数录音不同(据说这是把瓜内里)。

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38#
发表于 2012-11-4 06:38:52 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2012-11-4 06:53 编辑
这样说,希拉汉使用的仿“加侬炮”我是通过有关资料得知的,我会关心这把琴在我的器材上的音色,这就如同帕尔曼、海菲兹手中的名琴会有不同音色一样;

你是如何得知的,我不清楚。我认为十有八九是的。

我去现场和朋友听音乐会,熟悉我的人一定会轻声问,现在你听到的郑京和使用什么琴?一曲完毕,答:瓜内利。亦或参加穆特音乐会问,使用什么琴,一个乐章完毕,回:和您手中的唱片录音是同一把琴。事实也证明我的判读是对的。不是我对他们手中之琴有多了解,而是我对他们的唱片会很认真听,一点小经验罢了。

呵呵,这象在写虚构的小说。好吧,我这里上段小提琴,你说说这是什么琴。说对说错都没问题。只是玩玩。因为讲到是否可听出,我说不能,你说能。这是个无法证实的和不具有太多意义的命题。






这里自然说到器材设计和调声技术问题,器材音色如同美味佳肴之调味品,它是吊出原料的鲜味和本味,而不是掩盖原味。DIY也好、磨机也罢,更换一个电容,结果将一把小提琴搞的像刀刻一般强烈摩擦,而不知道灵巧的跳弓技术,如把真弓子放在面前,您会知道这样的“蛮力”会把毛都拉断光了,好了,该打住。

这段我无法评论,因为充满了主观的形容和没有科学和合理的逻辑基础的类比,莫棱两可,似是而非。要求低的话,大家一看了之,反正只是玩而己。要求高的话,这种思维方式和文风是不可取的。

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39#
发表于 2012-11-4 07:19:09 | 只看该作者
依旧没什么感觉


关于她的莫扎特的奏鸣曲,我是推荐,但各人体会不同,故有不同的看法是很正常的。当然,推荐并不等于她的演奏是十全十美的。要提缺点的话,我认为她的某些部分的速度不够轻快和有力。长处是钢琴和提琴配合的非常好。参考级的版本是Haskil, Grumiaux的。

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40#
发表于 2012-11-4 11:15:11 | 只看该作者
回复 Jwang 的帖子
“呵呵,这象在写虚构的小说。好吧,我这里上段小提琴,你说说这是什么琴。说对说错都没问题。只是玩玩。因为讲到是否可听出,我说不能,你说能。这是个无法证实的和不具有太多意义的命题。”
请先生不要把我原意搞极端了,呵呵。您也明白这种方式盲听会有失公允,只当陪先生玩一玩,这把是老琴声,它不是瓜内利琴,鉴于该曲播放时间短暂,尤其是E、A二弦走得少,把位转换等关系,先生如能告诉我那张唱片,有机会买来在自己器材中试听,可能会给你一个确切答复。

   

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41#
发表于 2012-11-4 12:27:33 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2012-11-4 12:35 编辑
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“呵呵,这象在写虚构的小说。好吧,我这里上段小提琴,你说说这是什么琴。说对说错都没问题。只是玩玩 ...
670707 发表于 2012-11-4 11:15

告诉你了,也就是告诉你答案了。

这CD是Bach, The Violin Sonatas, Frank Peter Zimmermann, Enrico Pace。这琴是Kreisler用过的Stradivarius。

Frank Peter Zimmermann谈他的琴


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42#
发表于 2012-11-4 12:38:41 | 只看该作者
回复 Jwang 的帖子
谢谢先生给予的答案,我是根据此曲A弦发音得出此琴不是瓜内利琴,如您愿意关注此弦中的“鼻音”在斯特拉迪瓦里、瓜内利、瓜达尼尼等制琴大师成熟期作品中有各自的发音特点,当然E、G弦更是其性格特征所在,谢谢!

   

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43#
发表于 2012-11-4 13:03:37 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 Jwang 于 2012-11-4 13:11 编辑

为了答复Rozinante兄的责疑,我化了点工夫找出了原始的实验。实际的情况和我的记忆有比较大的不同。

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-can’t-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/

Antique Italian violins, such as those crafted by Antonio Stradivari or Giuseppe Guarneri “del Gesu”, can fetch millions of dollars.  Many violinists truly believe that these instruments are better than newly made violins, and several scientists have tried to work out why. Some suspected at the unusually dense wood, harvested from Alpine spruces that grew during an Ice Age. Others pointed the finger at the varnish, or thechemicals that Stradivari used to treat the wood.
But Claudia Fritz (a scientist who studies instrument acoustics) and Joseph Curtin (a violin-maker) may have discovered the real secret to a Stradivarius’s sound: nothing at all.

The duo asked professional violinists to play new violins, and old ones by Stradivari and Guarneri. They couldn’t tell the difference between the two groups. One of the new violins even emerged as the most commonly preferred instrument.

Ever since the early 19th century, many tests have questioned the alleged superiority of the old Italian violins. Time and again, listeners have failed to distinguish between the sound of the old and new instruments. But critics have been quick to pick holes in these studies. In most cases, the listeners weren’t experts, and the players and researchers knew which violin was which – a flaw that could have biased the results.

What’s more, no one has tested whether violinists themselves can truly pick up the supposedly distinctive sound of a Strad. The common wisdom is that they can, but Fritz and Curtin showed that this isn’t true. “Many people were convinced that as soon as you play an old violin, you can feel that it’s old, it’s been played a lot, and it has a special sound quality,” says Fritz. “People who took part in the experiment said it was the experience of a lifetime when we told them the results. They were fully convinced they could tell the difference, and they couldn’t.”

During the Eighth International Violin Competition of Indianapolis – one of the world’s most important competitions – Fritz and Curtin persuaded six violinists to part with their instruments. Three of the violins were new; one was made a few days before. The other three had illustrious, centuries-long histories. Two were made by Stradivari and the other by Guarneri. One of the Stradivari, denoted “O1”, currently belongs to an institution, and is loaned to only the most gifted players. All three have featured in concerts and recordings, bowed by famous violinists. Their combined value is around 10 million US dollars, a hundred times more than the three new ones.

Curtin’s influence was essential in persuading people to give up such prized, fragile possessions, especially to be played by blindfolded strangers. “Joseph is a well-known person in the community and people trust him,” says Fritz. “That’s why we managed to do the study: the combination of me as the scientist and him as the violin-maker.”

Back in the lab, Fritz and Curtin asked 21 professional volunteers to play the six violins. They had played for anywhere from 15 to 61 years, and some of them were even involved in the competition as contestants and judges. They played the instruments in a dimly lit hotel room chosen for relatively dry acoustics.

The test was a true “double-blind” one, as neither the players nor the people who gave them the violins had any way of knowing which instrument was which. The room was dimly lit. The players were wearing goggles so they couldn’t see properly. The instruments had dabs of perfume on the chinrests that blocked out any distinctive smells. And even though Fritz and Curtin knew which the identities of the six violins, they only passed the instruments to the players via other researchers, who were hidden by screens, wearing their own goggles, and quite literally in the dark.

First, the players were given random pairs of violins. They played each instrument for a minute, and said which they preferred. Unbeknownst to them, each pair contained an old violin and a new one. For the most part, there was nothing to separate the two, and the players preferred the new instrument as often as the old one. There was one exception: O1, the Stradivarius with the most illustrious history, was chosen far less often than any of the three new violins.

Next, Fritz and Curtin gave the recruits a more natural task. They saw all six violins, laid out in random order on a bed. They had 20 minutes to play any violin against any other and to choose the one they’d most like to take home. They also picked the best and worst instruments in terms of four qualities: range of tone colours; projection; playability; and response. This time, a clear favourite emerged. The players chose one of the new violins (“N2”) as their take-home instrument most often, and it topped the rankings for all four qualities. As before, O1 received the most severe rejections. Overall, just 38 percent of the players (8 out of 21) chose to take an old violin home, and most couldn’t tell if their instrument was old or new. As Fritz and Curtin write, this “stands as a bracing counterexample to conventional wisdom.”

There are some issues with the study. Curtin, being a maker of new violins, has an obvious bias, but the double-blind design should have prevented that from affecting the results. The sample size – six violins and 21 players – is fairly small, but as large as can be expected when dealing with rare and incredibly expensive objects. There might also other variables that could affect the players’ perceptions – perhaps, for example, they might feel differently in rooms with different acoustics.
Fritz expects scepticism. She says, “It might help to change people’s mentality, but quite slowly. It’s a very conservative community. We’ll probably get critics saying we didn’t take this or that into account, but obviously, it was the same for the new violins too.” She adds, “Modern makers should be very happy, and we hope that it’ll help them to promote their violins. It shows that they’re doing a great job and their violins are on a par with the old ones.”

Perhaps the esteem that’s placed on Stradivarius violins is less about the triumph to age-old craftsmanship, and more a testament to our ability to delude ourselves. This ability has come out in other areas. Take wine, another product where certain specimens fetch critical acclaim and exorbitant prices on the basis of superior quality. And yet, study after study has shown that expensive wines taste the same as cheap plonkwhen you test people under double-blind conditions. The imagined link between price and quality is a delusion but, as Jonah Lehrer skilfully argues, it can be a pleasant one.

The same could be said of violins. The joy of owning and playing a Stradivarius comes not from any objective advantage in its sound, but simply from the knowledge that it is a Stradivarius. Never mind what it sounds like – it’s an elegant and beautifully made instrument that carries status in its name, gravitas in its price tag, and the weight of centuries in its wood.
For this reason, studies like this are useful for busting some myths, and they may boost the credibility of new violins, but they are unlikely to diminish the lust for the old ones. Fritz and Curtin recognise as much. Writing about one of their volunteers, they say, “When asked the making-school of the new instrument he had just chosen to take home, he smiled and said only, “I hope it’s an [old] Italian.”

UPDATE: John Soloninka, one of the 21 violinists who took part in the study, has commented about his experiences below: “It was fascinating. I too, expected to be able to tell the difference, but could not. Claudia sent me my comments about the instruments that I made while I was playing them, and it was hilarious how wrong my impressions were at the time!”

Reference: Fritz, Curtin, Poitevineau, Morrel-Samuels & Tao. 2011. Player preferences among new and old violins. PNAS http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1114999109



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44#
发表于 2012-11-4 13:10:05 | 只看该作者
回复 [url=forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&pid=221451&ptid=18407]Jwang 的帖子[/u
    弗兰克 皮特 齐莫尔曼(“贼妹妹”,笑谈)咬着这把1700年斯特拉迪瓦里说:“每把斯特拉迪瓦里都有人性——它们的生活经历在里面”

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45#
发表于 2012-11-4 14:47:46 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 670707 于 2012-11-4 14:56 编辑

回复 Jwang 的帖子
如果真像先生所言结论,我们之间的讨论可能对于我的认识是个挑战——那些烧友具有高级器材、诸多唱片版本。这是阿卡多演奏巴赫无伴奏小提琴奏鸣曲与组曲:http://buy.yahoo.com.tw/gdsale/g ... 07ad4c0547de27c5982
使用小提琴如下:
1.弗朗西斯卡蒂使用的斯特拉迪瓦里“心”(Stradivari “Hart”,1727):奏鸣曲1、2、3,帕蒂塔3;
2.馬吉尼“杰奥奇奥”(Maggini“Giorgio”,1620):帕蒂塔1,2;
录音时间:2007.9.24—29
录音工程师:Giulio Cesare Ricci(朱里奥 塞萨尔 里奇)
制作人:Giulio Cesare Ricci(朱里奥 塞萨尔 里奇)
这款唱片难道在许多朋友器材中无法分别两把琴不同音色?或者用别的唱片采用相同方式聆听,我很想知道结论。。。


   

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46#
发表于 2012-11-4 15:58:52 | 只看该作者
回复
1.弗朗西斯卡蒂使用的斯特拉迪瓦里“心”(Stradivari “Hart”,1727):奏鸣曲1、2、3,帕蒂塔3;
670707 发表于 2012-11-4 14:47
Stradivari “Hart”应该叫“雄鹿”吧?


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47#
发表于 2012-11-4 22:12:35 | 只看该作者
为了答复Rozinante兄的责疑,我化了点工夫找出了原始的实验。实际的情况和我的记忆有比较大的不同。
Jwang 发表于 2012-11-4 13:03


多谢Jwang兄查的资料。我好像也听说过这么个实验,不过记忆比较模糊了。

这个实验主要是说明老琴未必比新琴音色好。这个我相信。

用新琴的小提琴家很少,我只知道Alban Berg四重奏的第一小提琴Günter Pichler用的是新琴。

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48#
发表于 2012-11-4 23:18:45 | 只看该作者
我试图如此听音乐,现实中我搭配与调校声音是其中之一,难到没有人同我?

点评

俺认同,不过难度太大,俺玩不来啊  发表于 2012-11-5 06:31

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