TIDAL箱子的設計適合 小空間偏偏要玩大箱子的真性情男人
它是全世界唯一可以在小空間裡使用的大型音箱
因為它的超低音設計是用環繞填滿整個空間的思維出發的
設計師的理念就是他不要美式低頻(Wilson/Magico) 他認為錄音本身的低頻不該是那樣的
他要的是1:1的真實低頻 深度 解析 層次 快速 無失真....
而當單體的震膜大幅動進行活塞運動的時候(其他品牌的箱子設計)
那樣的低頻就失真了
拿一些真正具有極低頻的管風琴錄音來測試 看下潛的深度和質感
就可以知道TIDAL的理念是否為真 是否正確 (他牌箱子通常潛不下去)
TIDAL低音單體分頻點降到50Hz以下 並且
Sunray將低頻分割成1/4讓四顆9吋負擔 (每顆只負擔1/4的振幅 單體不會有大幅度活塞運動)
Agoria將低頻分割成1/2讓兩顆11吋負擔(每顆只負擔1/2的振幅 單體不會有大幅度活塞運動)
這樣將有輕如鴻毛 靈巧無比的無敵低頻 (必須要對音樂有真正了解的人才能體會了)

我真的只能說TIDAL設計師是個完美主義者 同時是個不顧現實的瘋子
(實際的用家會遭遇許多困難,如果他們不了解這箱子的設計)

我喜歡音樂 而且我不喜歡跟別人一樣 所以當初盲目的買進了TIDAL(那時台灣幾乎無人使用)
而我也走過三年滿頭苞的階段 只有真正了解這箱子要怎樣對待後
才能得到理論與實際平衡的完美之聲 在那之後我只能說市場上其他箱子我通通都聽不習慣

---
to:ecm 這邊說的是低音單體的活塞運動 在TIDAL箱子身上你不會看到低音單體前後大幅度激烈的來回震動

说点什么呢？哎............建议loou兄还是多谈经验，少谈技术方面的问题吧，技术方面不是您的强项，也不是TIDAL的强项，把缺陷说成优点就没意思了，这坛上懂技术的大把的......

点评loou 发表于 2 分钟前

BJMA兄 也許您該弄片管風琴錄音去老郭家聽聽 再來跟我對話會比較實際 不然您永遠認為TIDAL設計有問題 需要靠您的方案來巧手修正而我覺得沒問題 TIDAL就是那樣 我們兩個永遠沒有交集 多說無益...
loou 发表于 4 分钟前

經驗我哪能跟諸位相比呢. TIDAL的優缺點一直攤在陽光下 硬要去修正扭曲它 那也不是TIDAL之聲了.... 應該試著去理解接受它的音響美學觀 或是直接放棄它而經驗和密技是地獄裡三年磨練練來的怎可輕易告知他人呢...

loou兄，请不要点评我的帖子，这样回复起来太费劲，直接回复就好了。
当大家都在想着如何拯救这个箱子的时候，偏偏您以目前身份说这些......或许台湾同胞的审美观点与发烧理念真的与众不同吧，如果是这样的话，那甚是幸运......
坦率的说，上面那个帖子我是好意的提示，您非要理解成别的我也没办法，如果您非要做自己不擅长的事，我很乐意观看。
虽然这个箱子大陆目前用户还比较少，但很快就会陆续有更多人成为用户，更详细的、深层次的分析也会出现。在技术层面分析一个箱子，几个小时足矣。
再说一次：每个产品都有其自身长处和短处，充分发挥长处，弥补短处才是正道。T-A箱有其过人之处，但短处也显而易见，且有目共睹。
我们的目的就是找出问题的根源，用恰当的办法解决这个问题。以便欣赏完整的、美妙的音乐，而不是欣赏某箱的声音。
从技术层面来说，频响平衡是最基本的要求，如果您认为其缺陷恰好是个性或者缺陷美的话，那你我真的多说无益。

点评jansunzeng 发表于 41 秒前

），我是根本不认识loou兄，但从其玩Tidal的历程我感同身受，所以很理解其所谓“鸡同鸭讲”，呵呵
jansunzeng 发表于 2 分钟前

其实我平时很少也很不想去跟贴，但在这里BJMA兄与loou兄争执不休的问题让我有些按耐不住，首先我可以肯定BJMA兄并无真正感受过Tidal在不受扭曲的空间下发出其正常的声音而予以下结论（其实也是很多烧友容易犯的“错误

曾兄好！
呵呵，我和loou兄也不认识，也没必要刻意挑剔，我唯一的意思是：作为这个品牌某区域的代理，发言要严谨，特别技术方面的问题，错的就是错的，对的就是对的，来不得半点含糊和臆想。如果是错误的，以这个身份发言必然引起误导。
以我有限的知识判断，loou兄在这个帖子和姚大侠那个帖子里很多技术描述都是错误的，以我知无不言的个性缺陷，做到上述隐性提示已经是很克制了。
至于这个箱子，我已经大致经过了解，从技术层面分析一个箱子不需要太多时间，这个类似于人体健康程度测试。
至于其中发现，在姚大侠的帖子里已有初步阐述，想必您已看过，
以我有限的知识判断，这个问题想要在空间方面去解决是不现实的，咸菜方面碰运气更是不可能，唯一的办法就是双功放加特殊的电子分频器并短接内部超低频功率分频器，需要特别说明的是：原厂目前的电子分频器也做不到理想，因为它没那些特殊的功能。
至于个人理解方面，每个人必然都存在不同，但建议兄不要轻易提及“鸡同鸭讲”此类的话，这个言辞多少带点不友善，不利于探讨问题，换位思考，如果说技术方面的术语，我敢保证您自己都会承认是“鸡同鸭讲”！
我尊重玩家的心得，但仅限于玩家个人感受，很多玩法是不可复制的，所以不具有代表性。我认为简单的从技术方面着手探讨可能更容易将复杂的事情简单化。
多交流！

另外：
通常音乐信号中50HZ-100HZ这个频段内的低音成分非常密集，我认为就“完整的音乐”来说，这段低频至关重要。
我个人认为T箱在这个表现有所欠缺，与我们追求极致的发烧理念有所差距，如果能弥补这个不足，我认为会更完美。
自然，每个人对“音响”和“音乐”的理解都是不同的，相同的声音，有人认为是好声，有的人认为是恶声，我的音响观比较简单：平衡就好，平淡是真。
所谓：酒逢知己千杯少，话不投机半句多。要讨论问题，得有起码的共识，如果连最起码的对于声音的理解都存在分歧，则没必要再探讨。

点评jansunzeng 发表于 6 分钟前

BJMA兄，若在文字上有不妥的地方请见谅海涵，但所谓“鸡同鸭讲”意指烧友间在某种观点上互难沟通（我觉得很正常），其实大家的最终目的是听到美妙的音乐，也是有缘才会齐聚这论坛共同探讨我们所要追求的东西，呵呵

呵呵，曾兄客气了。
没关系的，我这人的个性缺陷上面说的是“知无不言”，还有一个缺陷是“言过必忘”，经常被郭大侠臭骂......
我相信在不久的将来就会面见曾兄，到时再敬您一杯。

曾兄好！
呵呵，我和loou兄也不认识，也没必要刻意挑剔，我唯一的意思是：作为这个品牌某区域的代理，发 ...
BJMA 发表于 2013-10-25 02:44

以小弟接触曾兄的感觉，他不是力度派的人士，斯文度肯定是充足的。他说的“鸡同鸭讲”应该可以理解为”白天不懂夜的黑“，即：一个状态不能理解另外一个不同状态，也没有共同的话语体系。应该是全无攻击之意。

不是在同一个频道的对话，无奈。

管他某品牌代理商也好，经销商也罢，最好是敞开胸怀欢迎设计师，研发者，统统都能加入进来讨论，至于论点的对错随着论据的陈述自然会越辩越明。所以请loou兄和BJMA兄多多探讨让tidal在用着与盼用着获益！

另外强烈呼吁香港代理能发表一下玩好T箱的看法与建议！

壯士想看設計師的理念的話 這邊有我當初問他的問題和回答

Dear Loou,

thank you for your work, I know how heavy it is. But is it not a real beauty?!

It is great that Mr. Liu reviews it, since he was also the first one who reviewed the TIDAL Sunray and it helped us to support us for the right way. The TIDAL Agoria is the next step and one maybe needs to learn from it a bit to enjoy it really and to understand its nature, its core and its abilities. Sunray brings you the artists into the living room, Agoria goes even one step further – it takes you to the artist, to the concert, to the time and event of the recording… Once you get used to this clarity, every other speaker after it will show you its own colour and own interpretation.

One could think quickly, truth is not going hand in hand with emotions… The longer you hear and understand it you will agree, the opposite is the case. It is presented in an uncut fibre. Anything else is speaker philosophy ;-)…

The woofers in the Agoria are pretty big and the “fake woofers” are the best solution for an extremely clean and fast bass reproduction. They do not need to move a lot, since they do have a big surface (diaphragm area) and the little moving just shows how much reserve and headroom they still have. The passive radiators do support the very lowest frequencies and since they do have the same big surface and are even three of them – they do not move also only a little. The less a driver moves, the lower the distortion is. And since the Agoria is throwing even “10 stones into water, at different points of impact” (10 bass diaphragms) the bass should be very even and free of boomyness and actually should integrate perfectly blended into the high-midrange. One can hear the true chromatics with deep black contrast in the lowest tones. Not the typical “here I am, the big moving woofer” as most speakers do impress quickly without any deeper truth behind. Adjust the bass to what the recording us or what you like the most, Agoria can cover it all, it does not need to be the teacher, it can be also the buddy for having hifi fun. Just gain the bass out of it as you like passive or endlessly with active.

“I just feel Agoria is like a teenager with Samurai Sword walk on the street searching for someone to kill”

This is one side of Agoria, it is so damn fast and precise that one likes to “x-ray” every recording and keens for more and more… but one would be a fool if one is not taking the time to look behind this side of it – it is the perfect postman presenting the letter as it was written. It has zero coloration and shows the tiniest little timbre and both micro and macro dynamics, while having the muscles to push an enormous amount of energy and wild dynamics into the room. TIDAL Agoria showed me that Sunray was only the beginning and that one needs to be willing to learn about the true beauty of music, pure and untouched, not as we maybe like to hear it.

My first prototype of Agoria was made out of MDF, and we do the strongest braced MDF cabinets I guess since over 14 years now… It sounded first a little bit more “romantic” and we compared it side by side to Sunray. I could have lived with it and I am sure we would have find many lovers for it… But we wanted to go further, to replace the candle with the light bulb. Therefore I developed TIRALIT. Same speaker, same drivers – the only difference was the cabinet. But then I heard tones and layers beneath layers, tones in tones, colors more colorful, pure and intense then before. Then I learned even Sunray was making a bit of “filter work” in front of it.

“The resolution is very very high!!!“
In fact, there is no higher resolution speaker on the market right now. Why is that? First above all, we melt all the drivers to the fastest step responses with our Unopulse x-over technology to one single experience. The trick is not the step response alone, THIEL speakers and full range drivers can do this too (maybe not with these numbers of drivers), the trick is how the step response ends, the decay, the ringing. And for that one needs the most complex filters and a cabinet material beyond MDF. I bet you hear things no any other speaker showed you. The diamond tweeter you see and hear is unique, no one has such a thing. It has absolutely no ferrofluid inside and has a long excursion voice coil system in a special milled aluminum housing. The housing itself is being milled in a special way to prevent any resonances… And this thing inside of the TIRALIT (which has almost zero energy storage effect, extremely stiffness and hardness and still high absorption skills) plus the finest parts and caps you can get for the money (and still no one has in this size and effort behind it)… well do the math why you take a curtain away in front of the speakers compared to other speakers…

Be honesty , it sounds very amazing but I love my sunray T1 more(more smooth and like a gentleman) I am not used to Agoria a lots!!!!
Take you time with it, it is the next step, it can be the gentleman you like if you just treat it different, with a different amp or a different setup, but it can. You just needs to trust us… we know what we are doing ;-)…
And: never before it was so easy to hear the coloration of oyur equipment. Connect it with the tube amp of your choice and you will hear it the first time what it really does… And if one likes it, stay with it! Agoria is always the messenger of what you do with it. Your energy to find out and the gear is the limit only…

Some question I need to make sure with you to see if the setting is right,and tell Mr Liu asap

1.    passive need to insert the jumper right? And active is remove?
YES. Passive: jumper into „assive“.
Active: all out, direct to plus and minus bass and high-midrange. LPX to “C” and “0dB” (or plus and minus as one likes”… Active is no must, but it is an in-built “anytime later option”. Yes it kills even passive, but people shall not think passive is crap – it belongs to the best passive speakers ever built I honestly believe. But the TIDAL active technology just lifts even that to another level.

2.    adjustment A, insert for flat?

”A” Passive: insert = linear upper bass, ideal for ideal systems and rooms and most realism. No jumper = more energy in the upper bass and lower midrange, more “body” for the taste.
Active: no jumper inside at all, no function.

3.    adjustment C, insert for flat
“C” Inserted jumper = flat, most linear and smooth. Removed jumper = more tweeter energy (for dull systems and rooms)

4.    adjustmect B, no work, insert it for good looking right?
You can do this J. Prepared for future updates, no function.

5.     4 possibilities from TWEETER JUMPER & Jumper C is
a.0dB (Adjustment C insert,no Tweeter Jumper) – Yes, Perfect!
b.5000 above+1dB (Adjustment C insert.Tweeter jumper insert) – Yes, Perfect!
c.12000 above+1dB (Adjustment C remove,no  Tweeter Jumper ) – Yes, Perfect!
d.5000~12000 +1dB &12000 above +2dB (Tweeter Jumper insert & Adjustment C remove) – Yes, Perfect!

    6.    Mr Liu want to know the the working range of 2*7” and Bass woofer (and which 2 is real, and which 3 is fake), please also let him know the working range of Sunray’s +2db for tweeter to compare for the new design (4 possibilities)

Sunray’s tweeter adjustment is working with a parallel filter to the tweeter x-over and it is starting at 14.000 Hz.
The Agoria goes one step further, I designed another parallel filter to influence also the energy curve below that. Each activation does not contain any serial influence of the signal way thru the expensive caps and the tweeter itself.
The front firing midwoofers to play down to 50 Hz, with full level and no distortion.

The side subs do play up to 50, 65, 80 Hz and do add also with each jump 1.5 dB more to the bass level. We do this with an unique made 15 kg heavy pure copper Variocoil inductor which has only 0,08 Ohm resistance!

The tweeter is playing down to 1.800 Hz. Usually this is tricky to play it so low, but we designed a x-over which cuts it very smooth first and then with a high slope to keep the distortions extremely low.

7.    Adjustment A ‘s working range, and how many dB?
It is like a “mountain” starting with 0dB at 80 Hz and ending with 0db at 160 Hz. And at 120 Hz we do have a 2 dB top of this “mountain”

8.    bass Flat/Gain A/Gain B, the cross point ,and the gain is how many db?
50, 65, 80 Hz and do add also with each jump 1.5 dB more to the bass level. We made a lot of research and learned that bigger rooms do not need only more gain, also a slightly and controlled frequency boost too, this is the system behind Flat/gainA/gainB.

Dear Loou,

two (lower ones) are neoymium woofers, three upper ones are Passive radiators (not fake woofers ;-)!),

I love to answer questions about the Agoria and understand that the concept behind the surface is pretty unique and radical honest – which is an eye opener but also demands.
I like it since I see our products being understood and know they were confused 4 years ago when they heard it the first time,
they were used to different device-signatures, to nice hifi. To describe sounds and to enjoy a nice interpretation of the system of the music.
Now they hear most systems do their very own interpretation of the music, still fun to listen but most probably not as intended from the artists…
To discover this with an Agoria and maybe even TIDAL amps is an experience…
You see, I just love what we are doing and we do stand behind it with 110% J.

Ok, here are the answers:

Actually I wanted 4 x 220 mm such as Sunray, all around the high midrange part. But the volume would be to small for that
(well, other companies would do this maybe and would be rewarded with a popular boomy bass, but not so TIDAL. We want it fast, precise, deep and “invisible”.).

The volume we need for 4 x 220mm you know : Sunray ;-)! So I swopt the 4 x 220 mm woofers to 2 x 280 mm and that works great.
And instead to make it a ported design with bass reflex, I used the first time special passive radiators, for these reasons:

- the bass is even more clean, since there are no ported noises to hear, any kind of muddy upper bass usually “sneaking” out of the bass reflex ports is not happen, the closed passive radiator diaphragms do avoid that

- the distortion are way lower and also the system is independent to subsonic movements, what does this mean: when the frequency in a ported design is lower then the so called tuning frequency “Fb” then the sonic just sees a hole in the speaker and the woofer has no “air pillow” anymore behind its diaphragm and the excursion is getting to much then for it.
You can simply imagine it with this: take a bicycle air pump and close the output with a thumb and then move the end of the handle inside and you will feel how the pressure gets higher inside the air pump until a certain point – and when you open the finger abruptly then the end of the grip run right to the end without any air-resistance anymore. This point all bass reflex speakers have and below that the speaker has no SPL and further head room anymore and starts with distortions.

(By the way this “air-resistance” inside of a cabinet is the bigger the smaller the cabinet is. Example: move a 15” sub-bass inside in these class-D powered small cubic cabinets. It is hard to do since the air pressure inside can be compressed only with sheer stupid power and equalization. Now imagine the same driver in a much bigger cabinet… The much more air behind it will allow the driver to move much more easy backwards and forwards with out any tricks, the bass is deeper and faster. Simply physics. This by the way is the reason why we build big cabinets with not to many or to big drivers.)

- and the position of these passive radiators do help to excite the room modes for the bass more even (such as Sunray)

Usually I was never a friend of passive radiators, since mostly they do move to much and make the sound slow – but I heard it only in other speakers. When we took care of it the “TIDAL”-way, the way we do it and we let design the passive radiators (no one has these ones as they are), it will erase any stereotypes within seconds and you should hear the most cleanest and fastest bass.

The 2 x 280 mm woofers are side powered for perfect step response with the front. But how can it be faster when it is on the side? Easy ;-): it is not! The high-midrange is always faster starting at any speaker! The trick is as simple as it is hard to do in reality: the bass just needs to start as first, since I can not accelerate the bass drivers. But I can time delay the high-midrange part! So it just starts AFTER the bass starts and I melt it all together with our unique x-over designs. This idea does not work with front firing woofers since the woofers would simply pass the high midrange then in start timing or would be behind it, nothing in between. We do the “in between” with the side configuration.
But this has also other advantages: a.) equal moving forces to the cabinet and we do excite the bass modes more even to the room.

TIRALIT音箱複合式材料的說明)
I designed to it burden you more weight and give the clients a nice “wow, how heavy it is feeling” ;-)… Just kidding: it was designed to combine different advantages, means stiffness and absorption. We designed it with in between even 11 layers of different materials and do use a special molecular glue which melts the upper surfaces to each other like it is welded (so there is no glue layer inside). It has inside an unique material which is a heavy poly-mineral material for the stability and to block the deep frequencies, two different HDF and HPL materials and a soft MDF core in the middle for the resonance control. Each material has a specific frequency-barrier and a different resonance frequency.

Therefore it behaves totally different then MDF or Aluminum. MDF is pretty soft but can be well braced still offer good results, since it has a good resonance absorption. Aluminum on the other side is stiff (the knocking knuckle test will prove it) but has inner resonances 8do the same test with a hammer and it will behave like a bell). So we wanted a material offering stiffness AND resonance absorption. TIRILAT is what came out. It offers an extremely inner stiffness, low energy storage effect (you hear almost how fast the frequencies do “pearl” from the drivers only, but not from the cabinet) and also a high resonance absorption, one can not hear the material itself. Please have understanding that we only show little parts of it and not everything, for example, the front plate has a different composing then the side panels, and that we do not want to go to much into detail with it,m since we invested a lot of time, experience and money into this material. Also we do screw all drivers with machine threads directly into the material, is so stable that you could hang a car onto this material when the thread is big enough to hold a fitting screw to do this job…

And this material also had another advantage: since the outer 3mm material is organic we can veneer it with our famous polished veneers or we can add our famous polyester piano finish (I hope you can see the quality!) - try to do this with aluminum J.

Agoria的效率比Sunray多4.5dB
”and if you can please tell Mr Liu (I also hope to know it!) the efficiency of Agoria and Sunray
I feel Agoria is more eazy to push...maybe 5dB more?“

You heard and guessed right. It has about 4.5dB more efficiency which is a lot and almost as loud as classical D’iappolito designs, but without their disadvantages. But one needs to take care with it, since it plays so ultra clean and with almost no distortion it does not warn you ear with clipping while one is listening with way to loud level for the human ear. We learned that with music, such as from “Agoria – Impermanence” (one of my favourite artists and they reason why our speakers are not named old fashioned as “Coltrane”, “Mozart” or so, it is new technology and needs also a new name ;-)…). With enough power it can play extremely loud without losing control. The Impulse can do it already pretty good, but our new Impulse Monobloc just makes pure dynamite out of it.

many greetings,
Jörn
  

这篇资料够我这半桶子英语消化一阵子。